Dr Alice Gorman
Dr Alice Gorman is a woman on a mission to change the way we look at the past and the future of human space endeavour.
Starting from her family farm in NSW Australia, Dr Goreman persued her passion for archeology into University and then into the field as a consultant. From there she's turned her eyes from the digs on earth, to the history in the stars.
In this episode we look at her journey towards becoming one of the worlds first Space Archeologists.
You can find Dr Gormans book - Dr Space Junk vs The Universe here:
The UN Program mentioned in the episode is here:
James Purser: So it's been a long time between drinks for women in STEMM. Almost two years since I last released an episode featuring Dr. Carmell O'Brian. In the last episode, I mentioned that 2018 had been a year of event. Well, as it turned out, 2019 and 2020 proved to be even more eventful. But let's get straight into another episode of women in STEMM. The guests for this episode who is someone who is literally pioneering a new field, space archaeology, from sieving through dirt on the family farm to looking to the stars to not only preserve our history, but our future? It's been a bit of a journey for Dr. Alice Gorman. aka, Dr. Space Junk. So let's start, as we tend to do at the beginning.
Dr Alice Gorman: So Archaeology, it's a bit of a cliche. So people often say, "Oh, I wanted to be an Archaeologist when I was a kid." And I suppose I was exactly one of those kids. But the thing that really drew me to it, was the books I had available to me as a child. And I was I was very lucky because one of my grandmother's friends used to give me books all the time. And among those books, I guess I was in primary school. So obviously, I had learned to read somewhere in between learning to read and maybe being eight or nine or something like that. I had these amazing books about the human past. And one that had a huge impact on me, was written a long time before that, I think it was published in 1922, or something. So a long time before I was even born. But the stories in this book, just absolutely mesmerized me. And these were stories about Neanderthal people, the discovery of the first I think it was a jaw that was found in Germany in the 1870s. And the recognition that there was another human species that wasn't around today, that that just seemed, finding out more about that sort of thing just was so compelling to me. And the other story was the Swiss Lake villages. So this is in the Neolithic era. And up in the Swiss Alps, there were these montane lakes and people were building houses on stilts, and living this kind of aquatic life, I guess. And to a little kid, that just seemed amazing, maybe it seemed more amazing because I was a little kid on a sheep farm, and hills in inland New South Wales. So the whole idea of these mountain lakes in the deep past was just absolutely caught my imagination. And of course, I had books that were about classical archaeology as well. You know, ancient Greece and Egypt and Rome, and I love those stories, and I loved Greek mythology. And my mother, I'm sure I must have driven my parents crazy. But my mother found a little kids book, an introduction to archaeology, which she got for me for a birthday at some point in in my primary school. And the amazing thing about that was it started to talk about some of the techniques, the methods that you use in archaeology to find out stuff about the past. And one of these was you know, you dig stuff up and then you put the dirt through a sieve or a screen, so that the artifacts are left and I was very enthused by this so I raced out into the, into the the yard which like, oh, you know, on many farms is just masses of junk, you know, 1800 stumped jump plows and old headers and wire and star pickets, stuff just lying around and I found some chicken wire. And somehow or other I managed to make this up into a sieve. And then I went into a little paddock that was next to the house. This is the paddock where all of the orphaned lambs and calves used to go to stay where, you know, we would go and hand feed them in the morning. That was a task we did before we went to school. You know, we'd have to if there were any orphaned calves or lambs, we had to go out and make sure they were fed before we went to school. So I started digging up this little paddock and putting the dirt through my little homemade sieve. And I was hoping to find, you know,
James Purser: Lost civilizations.
Dr Alice Gorman: Yes, yes, yes. And actually, I didn't find anything much. I found some bones that the dogs had dragged in there as well. In fact, I suppose if I think of it now with my professional archaeologists, these bones were just as likely to have been Dead calves and lambs from that period, or ones that the dogs had in fact scavenged?
James Purser: You were discovering signs of occupation of habitation.
Dr Alice Gorman: Yes, it just wasn't quiet, you know, sphinxes and diadems and golden jewelry that the book had led me to believe might be out there. So, so I was kind of, I suppose it was so important to me to have stuff to read. Because you know, there's this saying that particularly in relation to women in STEMM, which you can't be what you can't see. But if you don't even have the opportunity to, to see what could be possible if you don't have access to things that you can read. So you may not, I've never met another archaeologist when I was a little kid. But I knew they existed, I knew it was a thing that I could be, which was solely due to having access to these books. So I think that's just so important.
James Purser: At the time, was archaeology... did you see archaeology... because with those books, and everything else, was it mainly male? Or was there a sort of, was there a female element that you can see yourself being as a woman archaeologist?
Dr Alice Gorman: It was mostly male. But the book that my mother got for me, which I think was called an introduction to archaeology published in 1976, I still have it. There was a picture of the girl on the front, and she was actually sitting. So I think that was the inspiration for me to go out and build my own sieve. And I wouldn't been consciously thinking about this at all at the time. But right there on the cover of the book was the image of this girl, you know, she looked like she was a primary school girl, as well.
James Purser: So it was just like you.
Dr Alice Gorman: Yeah, yeah. So that, obviously, does have an influence on me even though you know, of course. Now, I'm sure girls at school are told about, you know, the way things are and the fact that they can do everything and that there is a gendered element to choice of professions. I mean, not that's not what happened in the 1970s. Yes, I am that old. That picture, having that book, I think was just such a huge influence on me.
James Purser: So, so you discover this love for digging stuff up for sieving through and trying to find the lost civilization of far west, New South Wales. You've gone on to high school and you've decided you're going to study archaeology at university. So how did that go? What was that like?
Dr Alice Gorman: Well, yeah, I was pretty stuck on archaeology, from primary school, although I suppose it's also relevant to add to this story that I also wanted to be an astronomer, or an astrophysicist. And I think the common theme here was, was trying to find out what the meaning of life was like, what are we doing here? Because I think both of those things, the human past, and that sort of vision of the greater universe are both sort of really about that. So you know, I trundle off to high school. I'm the only person I know who wants to be an archaeologist. I know, it is a very common thing for children to be captivated by. But I didn't know anyone else who was interested in this in any way whatsoever. And I certainly didn't get any. I don't know, what would you call it? Like, there was no one at school? Who said, Oh, okay, so this is what you're interested in now, you know, how can we help you achieve this goal, that just was not a thing that happened at all. So I was kind of, on my own a bit. And of course, I had this idea that that's what I would be working on, I would be working on classical civilizations, and this would probably mean going overseas. So there wasn't any context for thinking you could do archaeology in Australia. It really was all about those northern hemisphere. mythologies of where humans came from. And where human culture and civilization came from,
James Purser: was a very much a sort of Western civilization focus.
Dr Alice Gorman: Oh, yes, yes, very much. So I would have known that there was Aboriginal archaeology because again, growing up on a farm artifacts are all around you. And like most people in the country, like our house was actually filled with artifacts. So we had grinding stones that were used as doorstops. And then there was scarred or culturally modified trees, you know, where a strip of bark or would have been taken off for a canoe or for a coolamon or a shield or something like that. So the evidence is really all around us. But it wasn't something you learn about at school. And I didn't have an expectation that that's what I would be studying. When I went to university either So I suppose it was just sort of stuff in the background that you worked at weren't really thinking about. So, but I managed, you know, to hold on to the dream of archaeology throughout high school, despite, you know, not having any particular support. And of course, nobody thought you could get a job in it. Which is a myth that continues, which I continually try to dispel. So the idea was, it was a bit pointless, because, you know, there would be no future. But I think this is where my mother's support again, was quite amazing, because so she never said, don't do it. She never said, but what about getting a job? So, so she neither, she supported me where I needed it. But she didn't. She wasn't trying to cheat to close off avenues, but she was trying to steer me in any particular direction, she just let me have my job. Yeah, I guess so. Which I think actually is quite important. So she never said to me, You won't get a job, or that this is useless. But you know, she also didn't channel me in that direction. So it's very much my choice, I guess, is what I'm trying to say here. So most to get to the end of high school. And then the question was, where do you go to study? archaeology. And this is, I suppose this is a kind of weird thing, too, because I'm not a first in family person at university, like, like generations of my family, at different points have been to university. So in my mother, as a qualified occupational therapist, but all the same, you know, I was out in the middle of the country and and how you get to university was a process that had changed a lot since I was there. And my high school provided no guidance at all. So I was searching and there was no internet, of course. So it's like, where do you go to do to study archaeology, there were three places that are new, or one was a new the Australian National University. And I actually wrote a letter to Rhys Jones, to ask to be put on the list to go to study archaeology. That's not how it works. But I know, nobody around me knew that wasn't that word. Anyway, I think I've got a very kindly letter back from him, which I wish I'd kept. Now he's doing the most famous archaeologists in Australia. I don't know maybe it's in the bottom of a box somewhere. sort of saying maybe I should wait till that finished. I think I was in primary school wait till I finished high school to think about this. Then the other two places I knew where Melbourne University and Latrobe university because we were closer to Melbourne than we were to Sydney. So I turned up at to enroll at Melbourne University with no idea that a handbook existed. So you know, the handbook being the the volume that outlines all of the courses that I didn't know it existed, I've never seen a copy no one had ever said to me, this is what you need before you enroll. All I had was an a4. sheet of paper folded in three, which mentioned archaeology. So I knew it existed. And then in those days, too, you didn't enroll online like you do now you actually sat down with someone who talked to you through your choices. And this person. I said, This is what I want to do I want to do archaeology, I want to do astronomy. I wanted to do French. And I think I had a couple of other things. And he said, Well, are you sure that's what you want to do? Because, you know, there's all this stuff in this book. I'm like, What book are you talking about? We pulls out this massive handbook a man Oh, my God, I have to decide right here and now. And I had no idea that any of this other stuff was possible. So thank you very much careers guidance counselors at my school who let go So anyway, I got a did chose archaeology, I forget what else and there I was suddenly at university, studying archaeology to be an archaeologist. So that was kind of like, you know, the the dream was coming through true. I was I was actually doing it. But again, with no idea that there would be employment at the end of it. I suppose. I didn't think about that. I just thought this is what I want to do. So I'm going to do it.
James Purser: So you've come into you're coming to university with a bit of a Oh, my God, this is big, huge thing, right? You've most of what you've been looking at up until now is classical, you know, Greeks, Romans, birthplace of civilization type stuff. But you've got to focus on indigenous and Aboriginal archaeology. Where did that come from?
Dr Alice Gorman: So we did study some indigenous archaeology, particularly as in Victoria, there was some, you know, very famous archaeological sites like key law, which was were one of the first Examples of human remains dating to the Pleistocene was found. And, you know, huge amount of, you know, this is kind of before, there were, there was such an emphasis on indigenous heritage. So we didn't meet any Aboriginal people in that context, but I got to study the Australian archaeological record. And you know, and started to realize that it didn't all have to happen overseas, and that what was going on in Australia was, you know, equally complex and interesting. And this was also ours, you know, this was not, I suppose, I sort of gradually started to have the realization that Australia didn't have to be the poor, second cousin. To all of these great civilizations that what was happening, he was actually unique and fascinating. in its own right.
James Purser: Would you say there was sort of a cultural cringe about Australian, Australian and indigenous archaeology?
Dr Alice Gorman: Absolutely, absolutely. And that still exists. So you know, I will still be, you know, in Europe, let's say or talking to people from Europe, and they will say, oh, but of course, you know, the Australian archaeological record is so thin, or it's so amorphous, or it's so poor in some way,
James Purser: What they're showing us is not enough castles?
Dr Alice Gorman: Well, yes, that is. The other thing they're saying is there's not enough fancy retouch stone tools. Or you can't find a sort of a cultural sequence in the same way that you get it in Europe, particularly in southern France and northern Spain, which is kind of an imposition of a very European based model onto the rest of the world. So I still had these discussions where we, you know, people will say to me, I'll be yes, you know, of course, in Australia, you don't have so much to say, well, buddy, model pal, here, let me tell you, so there is still very much that cultural cringe out there. And in fact, this is something I found very important in my work, which is kind of recentering, Australia, or D centering the northern hemisphere, in terms of how the kind of global sequence of cultural changes is framed, and what that means. So, so in fact, in some ways, it was very useful to have that background in that kind of archaeology. Because if I know what I'm up against, I know what is the the the framework that needs to be dismantled? I guess. So it was certainly useful in that sense. But I guess, I, I became more interested in this side of archaeology. And I suppose particularly to because you could do it without leaving the country. And so when I graduated, I'm not sure I had a clear idea of what I was going to do. But what happened in the end was that I moved into the heritage consulting field. So I, I moved from Sydney to Melbourne and started working as Initially, I was just an itinerant digger. So you just go from job to job excavating. And that could be historic sites. Or it could be indigenous sites. And so that, for me was where I suppose it was kind of like a going in the deep end, because as a consultant, one thing you have to do is work closely with the Aboriginal community in the place working so. So suddenly, there's this whole new perspective, it's, and this is what happens with heritage management as well. So it's not just let's dig up a bunch of stuff and write about it. It's like, what is significant to this community? And how do we negotiate around the development that's happening, you know, a road or a power line, or an urban subdivision or a coal mine, I did a huge amount of work on coal mines in the Hunter Valley. So how do we negotiate this so that this development doesn't destroy this heritage, which is significant to this community for all of these different reasons?
James Purser: Because it's not just old stuff. There's a living connection to the local community, isn't there?
Dr Alice Gorman: Absolutely. So you've got both the aspects that there's continuity between the deep past and the present community. And you've also got the places and the objects and the stories that relate to the more recent past if you like. And these are often places that are just highly significant, because they're in the the memory of the community today. And they're equally, you know, under threat from these
James Purser: developments, as we've seen with certain developments last year where somebody blew up. Significant site.
Dr Alice Gorman: Yes, that was really interesting to me, because this is the sort of stuff that happens all the time. It's just that I think, last year, the ground was fertile for people to kind of take that up as as an issue. Which was interesting, because that's literally how the heritage legislation works. And I'm hopeful that this the whole Jackson gorge, fiasco will be something that, you know, brings about change, change in the way these things work, which is basically I mean, there's two interesting things, one, you know, there's a bit of a myth in the wider Australian public that all an Aboriginal person or community has to do is say, this is a sacred site, and I'll stop the development. And that does not happen because ministerial authority overrides everything. So the number of times that's actually happened is, is far smaller than you might hope. But in this case, you know, making a fuss and saying, Well, you know, what the hell is this? What's going on? Why can't this stuff be stopped? is also just a really important movement, or an important change of direction, where the public is really getting engaged in this. So? So I suppose Yeah, like this stuff is, is political. Yeah. And for me, this is, is one of the reasons why. So as as someone working in heritage, like I'm still equally as fascinated by finding out about the past as I ever was as a primary school kid. But practicing it as a professional in the present is also about, you know, supporting marginalized communities to have their heritage preserved and to have their voices heard. And this, I think, also is, you know, we don't always succeed. But that's an aspect of this work. That is it, you know, it provides some motivation. For me, it's not just routine work. It's not just ticking the boxes in an AI s project. It's it's actually about materially contributing to, I don't know, redressing some of the imbalances of the past.
James Purser: So indigenous culture, indigenous heritage is one thing that you have a passion for a big, deep passion, obviously. But then we switch over. Now, early on in the pace, you talked about wanting to be an astronomer or an astrophysicist, but you decided to go with being an archaeologist for the university. But you've managed to marry the two now you're I mean, your Twitter handle is Dr. space junk for a reason. So you, I'd probably be right to say that you're one of the pioneers in this area of space archaeology. What is space archaeology? Are we old enough to it? Is the space environment Space Race, old enough to have an archeological component?
Dr Alice Gorman: Well, it is now because if you think about the first vehicles that were capable of getting into space, they were made about 80 years ago now. So they're starting to get quite old. But what are the key things here is that archaeology isn't actually about old things, what it's about is how humans interact with the material world, objects, structures, and you know, environments, the natural environment, as well. So this means it doesn't actually have to be old for you to do archaeology on us. Space archaeology is really just looking at how humans interact with the physical materials of space exploration a term which is an A good quick handle, but it has a few problems, I guess. So it's looking at how humans create and use rockets and satellites and deep space probes and all of the technologies that go with space, including, you know, domestic antennas on houses that he used to pull down television and radio and stuff from across the world and bring them into people's smartphones. Part of this as well. So that was about all of those things that we use to interact with space. And that sense, it's archeology, like any other kind of archaeology, just, you know, a little bit closer to what we think of as the present, then we're generally used to,
James Purser: I don't think that little girls getting her server, but
Dr Alice Gorman: it's true. I don't have much use for this, at this point in time. And people often say to me, you know, how can you be an archaeologist when you can't go there. And it's a funny kind of paradox, I guess, because archaeology is such a physical discipline, like, it's not all about excavation. In fact, excavation is only a small part of what we do. But we're in the field doing surveys, or we're in the lab handling artifacts. A large part of archaeology is actually lab work, where you just sit at a bench, week after week, cataloging, identifying, putting stuff into databases, and then you know, doing the number crunching all of that kind of stuff, but it's very physical. And one of the things I think most archaeologists would probably say that that handling of artifacts is actually a sensory experience that's quite important to them. So my specialty, as a regular archaeologist was stone tools, which a lot of other archaeologists think it's quite boring, but you know, I love it. And you know, the stone that Aboriginal people and other people across the world use to make tools is often highly beautiful. It's it's got a cryptocrystalline, you know, smooth texture, it's often in beautiful colors or colors that become beautiful to you.
James Purser: A lot of it's almost fractal on some seeing some of the way that the napping happens, a lot of that tool work just looks almost fractal.
Dr Alice Gorman: It's true, you're absolutely right. So the sort of patterns that are made in the mapping process are invariant across different scales. And that does kind of give them I suppose, a sort of a depth that, you know, you can assess the complexity of the technology by by looking at that the fractal nature of that fracture, fractal fractures. So yes, I absolutely agree. So that makes the space thing is really different. Because, you know, there isn't, I mean, maybe I don't know, 100 years from now, maybe I'll get to be sitting in a trench on the moon, excavating artifacts. But at the moment, everything I'm interested in is actually remote. I can't see it directly, I can't go there. And I can't handle the artifacts in the lab, except I do a bit of terrestrial stuff, I guess, in the sense that there are space sites on Earth, you know, rocket launch sites, tracking antennas that I work on as well. So I do get to go into the field. And I do get to engage with parts of the infrastructure of space. But I don't get to go and look at the space dunk. That is the one of the focuses of my research. So that does it is a little bit. Some people sometimes say to me, Well, how can that be archaeology because you're not actually doing that kind of analysis,
James Purser: You should be wearing a helmet, you should be walking through digging stuff up. And
Dr Alice Gorman: but I use all kinds of other sources of information to do this. And I suppose some of what I'm doing is kind of conceptual or theoretical. It's about reframing this stuff so that we can see it as archaeology, and then go on to see what questions we can answer about it as material stuff.
James Purser: So you've been working in I mean, you're connected to the Australian space industry. You're You're a passionate supporter, the Australian space industry. There is a program that you're also involved with Ireland, just bring it up. Where is it? Sorry? What are you in space for women program? So what's that about?
Dr Alice Gorman: Well, this is a relatively new project that that's been started by the United Nations Office for Outer Space affairs. And this is to increase the participation of women and girls in space industry and space research because space has a bit of a problem with this. And I don't know if you've ever been to a toy store or hardware store, and you go and look at you know, toys or bedroom furnishings or clothes. All of the space stuff will be in the section for boys or girls. Get there. And princesses and hearts and pink and stuff like that. Yep. And there are little girls at school who think they can't be an astronaut because they need to be a boy to fit in. So this is here. And now people against us sometimes say to me, oh, but you know, that was in the past. It's not now. No, it is now it is right now. So for little boys, you know, they might not want to be an astronaut, but they don't have to think about it, they're already included. Whereas little girls have to overcome all of this stuff. before they can even start to think about maybe they want to be an astronaut. And this is this is where we are right now. And an alarming statistic is that in the Australian space industry, in the space workforce today, it's only 16% women. The other obstacle here is that people forget, or they are unaware that this is a continuing strong theme in contemporary culture, that women are not as smart as men, therefore women can't do engineering, maths, space, science, astronomy, astrophysics. If they do do that, it's because they're exceptional, not because they're regular. So this is still people don't realize that they hold this view. Because it's so deeply ingrained. But what it means is that, again, there's a whole series of obstacles that any little girl has to get over before she even enters this world. And I suppose, coming back to my story, so I, at primary school, I you know, I loved astronomy and astrophysics, I read everything I could about the stars, and the origins of the universe. When I was at high school, you know, I did, I did physics, I did maths, I did as much science as I possibly could do. When I went to university, I did astronomy in my first year. And this will sound so nerdy, but I voluntarily went to physics tutorials.
James Purser: Just not right to be nerdy on a women in STEM podcast.
Dr Alice Gorman: So hear all of these things, indicating that I was ready to go with astrophysics or astronomy or whatever, whatever. But at no point was I ever pushed in that direction. So I'm not saying that I wouldn't have done archaeology anyway. And I have absolutely no regrets about that choice, particularly now since I get to speak. But you know, the people are saying are the leaky pipeline? And you know, what can you do to get more girls in science? Well, there's my story there. I was. I, as I like to put it, I was leaning in so far, I practically fell off the edge. Yeah. But there was no one to support that. There was no one to support that. So how many little girls does that happen to? Whereas little boys, tend, that's already in the air like that they're already capable of just making those decisions, because it's all set up like that. So. So I think, you know, there's, there's so many points of choice around all of this. But I feel really lucky. Because, you know, I never imagined that those interests and ambitions that I had as a primary school and high school and university student could then coalesce around making a particular kind of archaeology happen. And, you know, you said earlier that, that, you know, in a sense, I'm a sort of a pioneer in making this field. And I guess that's kind of true, was one of the things was when I started working on space archaeology, so people are, people are a bit skeptical. So people in my archaeology community, we're kind of like our, you know, they're our skulls again, doing some cookie thing. So there was a fair amount of skepticism to overcome in that area, as well, which meant from my perspective, so I decided that I could not go near aliens or astrobiology. Because if I did that, then that would give people a reason to just dismiss space archaeology as a thing. So so I had to make some I wasn't the only person doing space archaeology, of course. So there was just a very small group of people at this point, who all encountered similar issues, people just thinking, Oh, you know, this is what is this, like, what is the point of this?
James Purser: One last thing before we do wrap up, you've written a book. And it's combined your two loves.
Dr Alice Gorman: So the book is called Dr. space junk versus the universe, archaea in the future. And it's partially about that story of how archaeology and space come to be combined. And I use archaeology in the sense of sort of objects and places to kind of explore human relationships without a space. So I start by looking at places on earth, and some of the most amazing space places on earth are actually here in Australia, the warmer a rocket launch range, some amazing radio telescopes. And then move through the solar system, looking at space junk in Earth orbit, the moon, deep space probes, like the voyages. And through this lens, I guess, consider the particular ways we've engaged with space. And one of those ways is the conceptualization of space as a frontier that needs to be conquered, which basically replicates the whole colonial worldview. And I think this is also where my background in indigenous archaeology was particularly useful, because that's a means of dismantling this kind of frontier mentality, which is one you see very much embraced by the space barons, as they called it, Musk, Jeff Bezos, Richard Branson, and others, which is you know, that the rest of the universe is just a resource for humans to exploit. And I guess a lot of the book is just kind of about exploring those different views of space, and looking at what the places and the objects kind of tell us about how we manifest those of us. Lots of people presume that because I'm critical of some of these entities to space, that I'm opposed to any efforts by humans to go to other planets or to establish residence there, or to do anything in the solar system, which, which I'm not. So you know, I want to find out about what's out there, as much as the as much as any of those space parents, I guess, I just want this to be done in a way that's ethical, and sustainable. Although having said the word sustainable, I'm also very unhappy with the way the space community is using the concept of sustainability at the moment, which is just basically ensuring continued human use of it. But I guess my book is really about setting up some different ways of looking at what we do in space, so that we can make better choices. And there's a lot of archaeology in it, too.
James Purser: All right, just before we go, what's your future plan? What would you like to do in the future?
Dr Alice Gorman: Oh, that is a great question. In the future, I would like to change the way that humans look at space. The big issue I'm thinking about at the moment, which is sort of scaffolded by all this other stuff that I've done, I guess, is the very widespread view that beyond the earth, space is dead and inert. And therefore we have no ethical obligations to it. So what I would like to do is provide the basis for understanding space as something that is dynamic and alive, even if not living something that is alive and something that we interact with, in a way that acknowledges the agency of what's out there. beyond us, I guess what I really want to do in the future, is change the way people think about space and then hence our planet.
James Purser: So small goals.
Dr Alice Goreman: Yeah, I guess.
James Purser: And a huge thanks to Dr. Goreman for taking part. I'll leave the details for her book in the description for this episode. In the meantime, I do intend to finish this project. got seven more episodes to record and finish and that means seven more amazing, interesting and complex stories to hear. Thanks to everyone who's taken part so far it's it's honestly been an honor. Oh and as always, the music featured at the beginning of this episode is Coco Coco by Texas Radio firstname.lastname@example.org mixta.org